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KDE Developer's Journals

success begets ignorance

aseigo's picture

during the last week of moving house (while still working, of course..) i haven't had much contact with my usual "peer group", including the KDE people. let me just say that in their absence from my life i'm beginning to remember how amazing all those guys are. instead, i've been in contact primarily with people who randomly pop up or who come in through the office during the work day. with Linux and KDE taking off, education is definitely lagging behind. ignorance is frustrating, but at least it (unlike stupidity) is curable. some examples of the ignorance i've run into this week:

a guy opined that he wished wine would let him install Windows apps directly in Linux rather than him having to install them in Windows first then boot into Linux to run them. i then glanced over at our KDE/Linux desktop pilot systems that have (Unfortunately) several pieces of Windows software running under WINE on them and nary a lick of WindowsOS near them, and asked when the last time he'd used WINE was?

another fellow was all proud about how he was developing this closed source piece of software for Linux and how he was shipping copies all the .so's his app used, and statically linking every other library that he didn't ship with it. yes, this included glibc. he then went on, as i sat there mouth slightly agape, describing how he tests the success of his linking shennanigans: he installs it under Red Hat 6.2 and sees if it runs; THAT way, says he, he knows it's linking against his supplied libraries. after i suggested he just use ldd for that, he was conveniently quiet enough for me to suggest that shipping all his libraries with his tiny piece of software was not only just asking for support pains, it was an unnecessary and, from a bug fix and security standpoint, silly idea.

and of course, there's been the litany of confusion or ignorance over what KDE is. one example was the fellow contemplating moving his company's desktops from KDE to GNOME because Red Hat supports GNOME. actually, at first he thought it only supplied GNOME now with Fedora. besides being rather untrue, i asked him what he was running KDE on right now. answer: Red Hat. i asked him what had changed between now and then to change his mind: he wasn't sure. i informed him that Red Hat's support for KDE has actually improved in the last few years and that there was no shift in their current approach, which is largely desktop-agnostic with a bent towards GNOME for defaults.

i know some people in the project don't care to create a KDE brand. presonally, i think creating a strong KDE brand would be deadly good for KDE. as would an educational program, which would also be deadly good for our users Eye-wink

so.. my personal observations for the week are:

o moving sucks
o success creates new problems, in this case wide spread ignorance
o moving sucks

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sad eagle's picture

Actually, statically linking glibc is a bad idea,too

glibc has a dynamically-linked interface to various name-resolution modules, which is not binary compatible between some releases; these do not get linked in, but the loader and the using code do. So apps statically linked w/some glibc version may blow up spectacularly on some other ones as soon as gethostbyname() or such is used.

aseigo's picture

yeah, k couldn't believe my e

yeah, k couldn't believe my ears when he said that he was linking his own glibc. then i found out through further conversation that he's an (relatively recently) ex-windows developer, and it all started making sense =)

pfremy's picture

I could have guessed it from

I could have guessed it from just the way he talks about it. And he is not even a good windows developer, because good windows developer tests their software on multiple windows configuration, which he obviously did not.

Apart from that, developing close source software on Linus is knightmare. There is simply no way you can match all the possible versions of all the possible installed libraries...

floyd's picture

Its not...

...if you certify your app, as most vendors do, for a particular distro/version combination. Then you are dealing with known entities.

tom chance's picture

Please, not branding!

I recognise that promoting brands is basically the modus operandi in any business today (Apple being a classic example in the tech world), but can KDE please steer clear of this?

Evangelising KDE itself, its technology, its applications, its development community -- these are the things that will ultimately sway people. Articles like the one on Ars Technica at the moment, and the ones I put together with a friend that appeared on the dot, are IMO far more effective ways of promoting KDE and dispelling myths than creating some metaphysical "KDE brand" that we push.

We need a concerted push in non-Linux magazines and other areas where people are making tech choices, promoting KDE. If a brand builds up around KDE, let it only happen as a result rather than a goal, associating "KDE" with the technology, the applications and the community that it represents.

aseigo's picture

there are many ways to create

there are many ways to create a "brand", and right now we do very little of any of them.

i'm not in favour of traditional marketing-hype brand building for KDE, but we ought to be (IMHO, anyways) sensitive to those things that build a brand, which is consistency and clarity of message not only in PR but also (and perhaps most importantly) in how KDE looks, works and is presented in the software itself. i don't think this is too far off from what you were suggesting, actually.

recently on kde-core-devel i mentioned that by making KDE CVS more useful to OS vendors in default configurations we can help promote the KDE brand by encouraging a consistency across OSes that currently does not exist. this concept was dismissed out-of-hand as an unworkable idea by some, the argument being that OS vendors will always customize because they need to differentiate themselves.

i don't buy that for a minute, though. Linux vendors don't customize Apache or PostgreSQL or most of the rest of the environment to differentiate themselves. at least not to the point of unrecognizability. their differentiation comes in services, Q/A, hardware/software supported, standards compliance (e.g. LSB), add-on tools (installers, admin tools), etc...

so why should they customize KDE to the point that it's not recognizable as KDE anymore? why should they rearrange the K Menu, K Control and more?

one reason is that the defaults aren't good enough. we need to remove that excuse, er, reason so as to encourage vendors to not muck with things so much.

datschge's picture

I disagree.

Imo we should encourage OS vendors to make active use of KDE features and optimize KDE to their target audience using the flexibility KDE offers. I agree we should discourage customizations which go beyond what KDE offers itself (eg. by patching libraries, customizing (not cleaning up) already complex structures like KMenu and Control Center etc. which are the only cases I'd call "mucking"). But discouraging vendors from using defaults different from what KDE uses out of CVS sounds like discouraging KDE users to make use of the flexibility KDE offers. What I would prefer to see is a move away from defaults which naturally will never please everyone to empowering first time KDE users more than ever by further extending the kpersonalizer wizard.

Our branding effort should not lead to all our KDE desktops looking the same just for the sake of it, instead we should further show where and how KDE is really useful for you and me.

(In the KDE article at Ars I tried to be a little controversial by showing off my highly customized desktop in some screenshots including a quick tutorial how to get the same result, but noone seems to care about that so far. =P)

aseigo's picture

> But discouraging vendors fr

> But discouraging vendors from using defaults different from what
> KDE uses out of CVS sounds like discouraging KDE users to make use
> of the flexibility KDE offers.

vendor defaults and user flexibility are not even close to being the same things. why do WE have defaults? because we're random, or we're trying to offer the best possible set of features? does the fact that we have defaults somehow inhibit users from taking advantage of KDE's flexibility? not at all...

> What I would prefer to see is a move away from defaults which
> naturally will never please everyone

you've just described every possible default setting Eye-wink

> to empowering first time KDE users more than ever by further
> extending the kpersonalizer wizard.

this is a good thing, which has its limits, and is orthogonal to what i was talking about.

> Our branding effort should not lead to all our KDE desktops
> looking the same just for the sake of it,

by default, they should, otherwise you don't have a brand. we should be able to (easily) modify those defaults as users, of course. but vendors aren't users, users are users. don't confuse the two. they are not the same.

> instead we should
> further show where and how KDE is really useful for you and me.

this isn't branding, this is education. the two have overlap, but are different beasts. i totally agree that we need to improve KDE and just as importantly communicate how cool KDE is to the public. but, just to be repetitive Eye-wink, that isn't branding, that's public awareness.

mattr's picture

creating a brand especially in N. America

Creating a brand, especially here in N. America, is possibly the most important PR move the KDE project could make, IMHO. Previously, I've been pretty ambivalent wrt helping spread the word about KDE. However, as more pressure (and FUD) comes from various groups, people, etc., the more that I realize that I should be more vocal in my support of my favorite desktop environment, and educate all the good people out there 'bout KDE.



Oh yeah, moving definately sucks. You're talking to the person who's moved 9 times in the last 3 years. (YAY for on-campus living!)

ervin's picture

Really true!

How true you are!!!
We really need to educate people.

And of course... moving sucks! Eye-wink

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