Earlier today I came across an article that made me smile.
- A quote first:
- "Gnome will join OSC's Community Advisory Board and work with the OSC to promote the open source desktop." (from the article)
- Another one:
- "...the (Gnome) Foundation will hope to raise the profile and acceptance of its interface as a standard for open-source systems throughout Europe. Gnome's rival KDE has a significant hold on Linux desktops in Europe, so the move also advances Gnome's chances of gaining market share." (from the article)
What does it mean? Well, to me it means three things, two for sure, and another one not-so-sure.
The first sure thing is: KDE is leading the way for the Linux desktop adoption, which is expressed in the growing movement away from the MS monopoly. And you can see the recognition in the quotes above, as well as in various poll results and studies.
The thing I am unsure about is this (so let me put it as an open question): Are our friends from the camp of the other, the second biggest desktop, now giving up targeting MS market share? Are they now shifting focus to bite into KDE's "market share" as their main purpose of existence? Well, there is no reason to be afraid. Knowing what kind of killer applictions for the enterprise and government market are currently maturing inside the official KDE code base, there is no way anyone could easily remove KDE users' loyality and make them switch.
The second sure thing is: KDE market share may be a worthwhile target for the other big Open Source desktop, as KDE is much bigger -- but this is not true the other way round. I do not see any need or inclination for KDE to attack Gnome, as long as there are still well over 90% desktop workstations on MS Windows. KDE's most substantial growth in the future, short and middle term lies with the companies and governments that want to switch away from Microsoft.
Oh, and of course it si great to see associations like Open Source Consortium in Britain being formed. KDE should join this as well as similar efforts in other countries too. They are an excellent platform for reaching out to the still-MS Windows using masses of computer users..
Looking at the successful migration from CVS to Subversion now completed, watching how diligent and even vigorous a dedicated group of KDE core developers already are on to porting kdelibs and kdebase to Qt4, and seeing some of the incubent new killer applications being worked on, I can not help but smile again.
And, BTW, there is a new baby-sister to the well-known KDE-apps.org and KDE-look.org: it is called KDE-files.org. These websites give expression to the huge FOSS ecosystem of end user and desktop applications KDE has grown to become. You can find some really well-polished gems there already, which have not yet made it into KDE proper..
It would be nice, if Frank started blogging about what is going on with his well-run sites. An initial blog entry, leaking some website and application statistcs perhaps, Frank?
Syndicate Blogs
Not about KDE
The GNOME press release does not even mention KDE.
Sad
First of all, it's nice to see something like the OSC here in Britain.
But, if the Gnome people are giving up on people using Windows and targetting KDE (some have already done it with that silly business over things like Largo), then I can't put into words how much I find that pointless and extremely sad. The share of KDE and Gnome desktops is still (unfortunately) insignificant compared to Windows, and the whole point of creating open source desktops was to give people that freedom, or more specifically, for users to feel the knock-on benefits of free software development. What on Earth is the point of argy-bargy between one or the other?
If I ever see Gnome, usually as a front-end to a Red Hat server, I don't moan about it and try and get them to install KDE. I'm quite pleased when I see a Red Hat, or other Linux-based machine using any kind of desktop. I use KDE, and so do the people I work with, simply because we think it's the best overall open source desktop with some applications that are really progressing. It's not without its faults, but such is life. To be honest, all of the Linux/Unix desktops and servers I've seen here in the UK use KDE - including those used by a major client who is traditionally a big Novell user. I've even seen many Solaris users where the first thing they do is get out their additional CDs and work out how to install KDE.
Nope, KDE can't lead the way
Not as long as its tied down to a dual GPL/proprietary license with its toolkit.
Not that Simple I'm Afraid
If you're leading the way then you're leading the way, whatever tools or licensing you use. Just ask Microsoft. I would love to be able to develop everything for nothing. If only life were that simple, especially for free desktops, but it isn't.
Creating a desktop, applications and the infrastructure around it is a complex and huge endeavour, and it has now become clear that you need really good development tools to do it. Open source developers want to be debugging their own applications, not their development framework. That requires investment, either through investing time, effort and ultimately money in those tools and giving it away free (LGPL, GTK etc.) for every purpose or having a company on your side that is favourable to open source development but can still make money to re-invest in those development tools.
It's now clear that the latter way is the most realistic, as we probably all supected it would be. The amount of investment the Gnome division at Novell, Red Hat and Sun would have to put into the infrastructure and development tools of Gnome to make it good enough to edge out Windows is simply unrealistic considering that they would then just have to give it away. They would simply never recoup that investment, and arguably, many companies that formed around Gnome have wasted as much money as it is. It's also clear that Sun isn't really interested in investing large amounts of time and money in Gnome at all - they're just using it as a base for their Java and other things.
In the next couple of years when KDE and Qt 4 come on song and people start really utilising the development tools they have available, I can't see any reason why we won't see KDE move decisively ahead of any other Unix desktop. It's going to annoy an awful lot of people (or in ESR's own words, p*** a lot of people off), but that's not KDE's problem and we certainly won't hear KDE's developers mouthing off about it.
It is that simple I'm afraid
I would have loved for Gnome to never have existed and KDE had led the way to becoming dominant on the Unix desktop, but it's just not going to happen with a GPLd QT. There are reasons that Sun, Novell, RedHat are all going with Gnome/Gtk+ and a major one is that they're not going to be held hostage by Trolltech that owns all copyright to the toolkit. I wish someone (maybe IBM) had bought Trolltech years ago and put Qt under a liberal license. Maybe there's still hope.
I've Outlined the Reasons - It's Set in Stone
I have outlined the reasons, and like so many people who cannot see this staring them in the face you've side-stepped them with the usual silly comments.
I would have loved for Gnome to never have existed and KDE had led the way to becoming dominant on the Unix desktop, but it’s just not going to happen with a GPLd QT.
That's like saying Microsoft would never have had 90% desktop market with the licenses they use! Don't see a correlation there.
I have outlined the reasons why KDE will always be ahead of Gnome in terms of development base, or anything that uses LGPL'd etc. toolkits on the desktop. Here's why:
Development tools, LGPL or otherwise, still need investment and maintenance. The cast-iron reason why that doesn't work is that neither Sun, Red Hat or Novell has enough resources from any kind of business model around that to make it work. After five+ years of people trying various things around this without success that has now become abundantly clear.
There are reasons that Sun, Novell, RedHat are all going with Gnome/Gtk+ and a major one is that they’re not going to be held hostage by Trolltech that owns all copyright to the toolkit.
Oh, the corporate support.... Look, if they haven't done anything now after all these years it isn't going to happen. And what's that about Trolltech owning copyright? That's fairly non-sensical.
Besides, they're not held hostage. With people being able to create quality GPL'd software with Qt, and the fact that Qt is open sourced and will allow further interoperability with different software in the future, no one is held hostage at all. Are they held hostage now by Microsoft?
All that is pretty academic, as Novell have already gone with Qt and KDE. Look at SLES 9 or the new OES (the stuff they actually sell), look at what it runs and look at what the configuration tools are written with. You're listening to the wrong people I'm afraid.
I wish someone (maybe IBM) had bought Trolltech years ago and put Qt under a liberal license. Maybe there’s still hope.
I don't. If that had happened Qt would never have had the business model to fun investment to make it as good as it is now.
Software development, open source or otherwise, still needs investment in developer time and resources and that needs to come from somewhere. Good development tools don't just get plucked out of thin air for fanboys to go off and develop everything for nothing.
That is never going to happen I'm afraid, and if that's what you think you're going to get from open source software then perhaps you should try another career?
Anyway, I've tried to outline what I think in a straightforward way because I think it's going to be very important if Gnome, KDE or any free desktop is going to get anywhere any time soon and it's certainly going to be important if anyone like the OSC is pitching any alternative desktops to Windows.
I wouldn't expect fanboys to admit the truth
I have outlined the reasons, and like so many people who cannot see this staring them in the face you’ve side-stepped them with the usual silly comments.
Yeah, KDE fanboys and developers realize that a GPLd Qt isn't an ideal situation but as usual will do their best to justify the current situation.
Sorry, but I can download any Microsoft SDK for free. It's only the IDE that costs money. Qt is the only major toolkit with a restrictive license. You seem to be incapable of recognizing reality.
After five+ years of people trying various things around this without success that has now become abundantly clear.
So now you're going to sit here with a straight face and say that nothing has happened in gtk+ land in 5 years? That's good for a laugh.
Besides, they’re not held hostage. With people being able to create quality GPL’d software with Qt, and the fact that Qt is open sourced and will allow further interoperability with different software in the future, no one is held hostage at all. Are they held hostage now by Microsoft?
Sorry, but people in the business open source world aren't going to let some small norweigian toolkit company be able to dictate proprietary licesning terms on a whim. And no, you're not held hostage by Microsoft because you can download the SDKs for free and redistribute the libraries for free without some restrictive, viral GPL.
All that is pretty academic, as Novell have already gone with Qt and KDE. Look at SLES 9 or the new OES (the stuff they actually sell), look at what it runs and look at what the configuration tools are written with. You’re listening to the wrong people I’m afraid.
That's pretty funny. I guess Novell decided to waste money by buying Ximian. And I also guess that nothing about the KDE desktop is ever highlighted at Brainshare. Novell has already decided that the future of desktop development is Mono.
Software development, open source or otherwise, still needs investment in developer time and resources and that needs to come from somewhere. Good development tools don’t just get plucked out of thin air for fanboys to go off and develop everything for nothing.
It's a toolkit, not an application. You seem to have problems understanding the reality of the situation. Qt isn't the only toolkit on the block and having a viral, restrictive license like the GPL can't help an already overall miniscule desktop market for KDE.
But continue to live your fantasyland where Qt being GPL is not an issue. The writing on the wall has already been written. And it's saying Novell, RedHat, Sun, and Ubuntu.
Yawn
Sorry, but I can download any Microsoft SDK for free. It’s only the IDE that costs money.
But those businesses who you are oh so concerned about have to pay licenses for Windows, Office etc. and all the software they need to make any use at all of those development SDKs. Microsoft needs to fund those development tools in some way, and we should all be familiar how they do that - or did I miss something?
I take it Microsoft gives you a free or low-cost OS and a free office suite as well like you can get in the open source world?
That’s pretty funny. I guess Novell decided to waste money by buying Ximian.
Yes.
Novell has already decided that the future of desktop development is Mono.
So all of Novell's web applications and tools are being written in Mono and OES has Mono as its central method for deploying server/client applications? No, don't see that anywhere at all.
Saying it doesn't make it happen, and people have been saying it for a mighty long time.
Sorry, but people in the business open source world aren’t going to let some small norweigian toolkit company be able to dictate proprietary licesning terms on a whim.
Sorry, but people in the business open source world aren’t going to let some large US software company from Redmond be able to dictate proprietary licesning terms on a whim.
Sound familiar? Do you have any idea at all how much people in the business world invest in development tools at all? The above is what you want, not business.
You've obviously not developed software before in your life nor have any clue about it, and so, this thread ends.
Sorry you can't accept reality
That’s pretty funny. I guess Novell decided to waste money by buying Ximian.
Yes.
That basically sums it up. You're bitter that Novell bought Ximian and is funding so much Mono development...probably bitter that an American company bought Suse too.
Sorry, but people in the business open source world aren’t going to let some large US software company from Redmond be able to dictate proprietary licesning terms on a whim.
Once again, you don't have to pay anything for Microsoft's SDKs.
You’ve obviously not developed software before in your life nor have any clue about it, and so, this thread ends.
And you're obviously incapable of admitting the truth that RedHat, Sun, Novell, and Ubuntu have all chosen a toolkit that isn't viral and restrictive like straight GPL. And that's really the bottom line because obviously Qt is technically a superior toolkit, but RedHat, Sun, and Novell know that if the Unix desktop has any chance of ever taking off they can't also say to their customers "Oh, by the way, you'll have to pay this norweigian company $1500 per developer/ per OS if you plan on developing proprietary apps"
Huh?
"Yeah, KDE fanboys and developers realize that a GPLd Qt isn’t an ideal situation but as usual will do their best to justify the current situation."
What "situation"?
"Qt is the only major toolkit with a restrictive license."
Qt is licensed under the GPL. It's free software. It's license is shared by majority of Linux-software, including the Kernel. What exactly is so "restrictive" about it? If you find it so "restrictive", then I guess you have problems with just about aeverything in Linux. I mean, most of it is under the GPL as well.
Seriously, first people whined when Qt was not free enough. Now that they have made it 100% free software, people STILL whine! Why? I mean, you guys insisted that Trolltech must provide their toolkit as free software. And now you whine when Qt's license requires that you release your software as free software as well! You demand that TT must do something, and when TT insists that you do it as well, you whine! May I suggest that you open your dictionary under "hypocrisy"? "Do as I say! Not as I do!".
"And no, you’re not held hostage by Microsoft because you can download the SDKs for free and redistribute the libraries for free without some restrictive, viral GPL."
Steve Ballmer, is that you??
"But continue to live your fantasyland where Qt being GPL is not an issue."
And what issuse that might be? Don't like GPL? Fine: buy the commercial license, and license your apps as you see fit. But maybe Trolltech doesn't want leechers taking advatange of their hard work without getting anything in return? Either they get money, or they (and the rest of the community) get source.
"But continue to live your fantasyland where Qt being GPL is not an issue. The writing on the wall has already been written. And it’s saying Novell, RedHat, Sun, and Ubuntu."
Sun is next to irrelevant. Novell's Linux-effort is called SuSE, and it's very much KDE-centric. Red Hat does favour Gnome, but Mandriva, Knoppix, Lindows, Xandros, Slackware etc. etc. all are KDE-centric. Ubuntu is the current darling of distributions. And I clearly remember that it has a KDE-version as well. So what was your point again?